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 A third capucine monk letter?!

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PostSubject: A third capucine monk letter?!   Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:29 pm

I stumbled upon this text on the alchemywebsite.com.
http://www.alchemywebsite.com/lully_experiments.html

It is suppossed to be the process from Raymund Lully but the owner of the alchemywebsite.com says this:
"These are likely to have been written in the seventeeth century based on some earlier publications of 'Lully' experiments in Latin and German."

The text provides stunning resemblance with "both"capuccine monk letters and they use the very same ingrediant(sea salt+water), the same phrases and the same processes!
So i thought it may be of some help for ___ to improve the whole process.


Last edited by dejan07 on Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:14 pm

Dejan, look here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7279441/Musallam-Dr

This process for the stone needs only salt (as far as I remember) but it is not so simple as the dew process and not written in plain text.
The book is in german language
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:43 pm

Very good Benedikt, since i know German it woud not be a problem to read it.
I believe know that there is a couple versions of capuccine letter, so it will be highly efficient if we get them all.

I have found out that the author of "THE SECRET TEACHINGS OF ALL AGES" Manly P. Hall took the "original" Actum Leyden letter from Dr.Sigismond Backstrom collection, to be precise in the Bacstrom Collection MS. 102, Vol. 5.

Does any of you posses complete Dr.Bacstrom's Collection?

It would be advisable to look closely at his entire collection, maybe we could find more information or even another version of the letter!!!

Where did Hans Nintzel found his "new" version of the letter?!
Guys this is very important!
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:11 pm

I have just received the original Leyden letter from the British museum. It is to be found at:

MS Sloan 3636 ff. 99-115

This is the original letter written on our dew process. Unfortunately, the British Museum owns the copyright, so I can't post anything of the actual text here, or send it to many people. But I can say that Manly Palmer Hall left a great deal of the letter out of his book. The letter was written over a period of four days, it contains and describes the proper process of multiplication as in the Cappucine Monk's description, including all the affects such as 3 drops of the first multiplicaiton, and only one drop every six months of the second multiplicaiton, and so on; and finally there are two important marginal notes on the second page of the document. The first uses symbols and translates either as "This salt is earth" or "This salt is antimony". The second note also uses symbols (and I think is the more important of the two) which when translated reads "This dew is Nitre". I think this may point in an interesting direction and help possibly to explain what is happenning in our flasks. The letter was hand written in old english, so a great deal of the spellings change throughout the text and a lot of the letters look the same. this makes reading rather difficult, but I have managed to transcribe it into microsoft word format, and I am working on bringing the language up to date. This should be completed within the next few days. I think is extreemly important because it shows that there was actually little deviation from the professor of Leyden and the Cappucine monk. (who knows, maybe Nick's idea that they are the same person may be true after all...)
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:14 pm

I searched everywhere to see where I could find the letter.. But I can't find it anywhere.. Is there a link where I can read / order this letter?
Could you let me know where I can order a copy?

Blessings,
Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:22 am

Hello truekabbalist : good work getting the origional leyden letter Smile i went to the british museum web site and used their own search engine but came up blank. I used your ( ms sloan 3636ff.99-115 ) and tried ( Actum Leyden ) etc. no luck how did you find it ? did you have to hire an archivest ? I'd love to get my own copy !! and dont mind paying for it sincerely Auggie
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:00 am

Thank you very much true kabbalist.
It is very important to know what stands in the original letter.
But are you sure there is a copyright on such an old document ?
Books can be freely copied when the author died more than 70 years ago.

Greetings sunny
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:34 am

TrueKabbalist post this letter immediately!!!
Leave it here for a few days and then delete it by editing your post.

Nick has posted the entire capuccine monk letter and i have posted wholle excerpts from the books and we didn't have the copyright too.
Everything was coming only from the goodness of our hearts.

Don't be selfish!!! Mad


Last edited by dejan07 on Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:23 am

trueKabbalist,

please don't transcribe the letter but scan it and post it here in the original version.
I am willing to pay for it.

Very Happy

Frank
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:29 am

Truekabbalist,
I knew that you were a genius.
Asking to the british museum was somwthing that I should do month ago and that was on my mind.
Thank you for the idea.
Actually I don't know what is better, if you show us the matter or if an army of us write, phone, e-mail to the british museum Laughing to have a copy...

Zosimo
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:59 pm

Thank you truekabalist for sharing...

Here is the complete letter!! Transcribed from British Library MS. Sloane 3640, by John O'Brien

This is a translation of Alexandre Toussaint de Limojon, Sieur de Saint-Didier [1630-]. Lettre d'un philosophe, sur le secret du grand oeuvre. Ecrite au sujet des instructions qu'Aristée à laissées à son fils, touchant le magistere philosophique. Le nom de l'auteur est en latin dans cet anagramme. Dives sicut ardens, S. Paris: chez Laurent d'Houry, 1688.

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/letphil.html

Enyoy you all. sunny
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:09 pm

That's the wrong letter Oscar.
Actum Leyden letter is MS Sloan 3636, not MS Sloane 3640.
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:39 pm

Dear dejan07,

Just read it... and then you can have an opinion... pirat
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:44 pm

Oscar this is NOT the same letter!!!
Yes he talks about the dew and air but it is not ORIGINAL Actum Leyden letter! Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:55 pm

yes kabbalist please share even if its for one day What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:16 pm

There is another version of the same letter in MS Sloane
3772.





Sloane 3772


5. The testament of J.G.M. in which is declared the
secret of the transmutation of metals. ff.48-58.


A letter is prefixed, inscribed: 'To my loving Cozen and
son the true Hermetick Philosopher. J.H.N.O.'


Begins: 'Altho I had resolved nevre to give in writing to
any person the secret of the ancient sages'.


The treatise begins: 'In the name of God take of the
cleanest and clearest sea salt, so as tis made by the heat of the sun'.


Ends: 'therefore allso I have subscribed this Testament
with my blood, the last day of my life, on my death bed. Actum Leyden, 27 of
March, 1672, J.G.M.'





MS. Sloane 3636.


Paper. Quarto. 203 folios. 17th Century.


The name of John Nowell is written on the flyleaf.


7. A declaration of the secret of making gold; in the
form of a lette, inscribed 'To my loving cozen and son the tere Hermetik
Philosopher T.H.U.O. ff.100-114.


Begins: Dear loveing cozen and son, tho I had resolved
never to give in writing to any person the secret of the ancient sages-'


Ends: 'Allso I have subscribed this testament with my
blood, the last day of my life on my death bed - Actum Leyden, 27 of March,
1672'.


Signed at the end 'T.G.M.'
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:24 pm

Yes you are right...

How many versions are out there?! No
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:28 pm

Hello world...


Last edited by Oscar on Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:29 pm

hahhaha too many butt you know how it goes the more the marrier lol!
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:44 pm

Ok, first of all guys, the copyright is owned by the British Library. Because the copyright is held by an institution, the copyright never expires. Here is what they say:

Copyright
All material is subject to UK Copyright Law. Requests for a complete reproduction of material that is in copyright will require written copyright permission from the copyright holder before Imaging Services will accept the Order Form. The Customer must supply the original permission from the copyright holder (photocopies are not acceptable).

Permission to Reproduce
The British Library owns and retains at all times the copyright on all reproductions produced. Customers may not reproduce any material supplied for any reason, (including academic or personal, and whether for profit or not) without prior written permission from the British Library. Customers wishing to reproduce supplied material should apply to British Library Permissions for the applicable fees.


I will try to contact the museum again to check on the specifics of whether I can post anything here. As this would also apply to digital scans of the photocopy I have, I will have to wait for the Museum to respond. They usually get back in about a week to two weeks time. So, patience please, my friends. Secondly, as I said before, the manuscript was written in old English, complete with fluxuating spellings and identical letters used to signify different sounds (this makes for intolerably difficult reading). I am currently working on bringing it up to date. This should be done in a few days. When that is complete I don't think it could be considered the same document anymore, so I will then post the significant portions on the forum. I would like to point out that the majority of the letter is exactly the same as the copy from [i]Secret Teachings of All Ages[i] and the Cappucine monk's letter, so you guys won't be seeing much that's new. I just presented this because I found it interesting that Manly Palmer Hall left so much of the original letter out of his book (namely the multiplication process that Nick found in the monk's letter). So I will see what I can do for you guys.

If anyone wants to order it for themselves, go here:

https://www.bl.uk/imaging/imagingorder.html

Here is the info line by line you will need to enter

Sec. 1

Your name, address, and personal information so they know what the heck to do with the darn thing.

Sec. 2

manuscript number: Sloan 3636
title: A declaration of the Secret of making gold; in the form of a letter
author: Unknown
published: NA
pages: 99-115 both sides
Required product: A3 paper copied 1-100

Sec. 3

Choose your method of payment and fill in as required. It costs about $35 or so depending on USD to Euro fluctuations. I just used my debit card.

If you decide to place an order, please be patient. It should get to you in about a month or so. Important, you do need to be present at your residence to recieve it!!! Otherwise you will be notified of its arrival and you'll have to go all the way down to your post office just to pick up this stupid envelope. Jeez.
Have fun!!!!!!!

PS. This is an old maniscript, so I don't think the Imaging services and the manuscript technicians will appreciate much 200 something orders on this one thing, so please use discretion, and don't everyone do this at once PLEEEEEZZZZZ!!!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:29 pm

truekaballist, i comprehend your desire to remain legitimate and legal in your following precedings, being as i know several people who have had many legal standing problems from similiar situations.

i appreciate the actions of those who have had the selfless courage to post what is necessary.

i do have a suggestion, when/if you are able to post it: instead of trying to bring it "up to date", i would request posting it in it's original words. if not over this forum, perhaps in an email? personally, when i read old english, a lot of it resonates deeper within me when i read the altercations made in the word structure and pronounciation, i feel it brings me closer to what they are truly saying, the way they are saying it, and all the secret implications, concious or subconcious, that they make apparant with or without realizing it. it may sound strange, it's just the way i learn things more efficiently, comparing word usage and spelling with old roots of the words and looking for similarity.

i would rather buy my own copy, but i currently have no funds or available means to make them. the midwest isn't the best place to get work right now Rolling Eyes hopefully this will change with moving to seattle.
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:35 pm

Also, something I realized by just lightly skimming through RAMS. The use of dew is central to alchemical work, as Nick has said. So there are probably hundreds of different alchemical experiments with dew. If you want to try other processes utilizing dew, that's great and I think it would be very profitable. But I think the main focus now should really be praxis of this one process. It is simple, quite safe when taking proper, minor precautions, and affordable, with extreemly powerful results. It really is ideal for us. So, looking for other versions of the process will help, but I think the thing that will be most useful are the reports of the people doing the actual process on this forum. Just my thoughts.
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:06 pm

Quote :
i do have a suggestion, when/if you are able to post it: instead of trying to bring it "up to date", i would request posting it in it's original words. if not over this forum, perhaps in an email? personally, when i read old english, a lot of it resonates deeper within me when i read the altercations made in the word structure and pronounciation

Hi Felix,

I don't think I made myself clear by saying "old english" and "bringing it up to date". Here's a better description of what I'm dealing with. The Leyden letter has no punctuation whatsoever, capitalization is random, it is hand written in cursive script (thank G-d its somewhat clear), the 'r', 'v', and 'u' are identical, the 'c' is written like small capital 't', and 'i' is 'j' in some cases. Furthermore, modern English spellings remained in flux until the printing of the King James bible in 1611. And even then arguments raged among grammarians over spellings of specific words up into the late 1800's. Also, we are dealing with a document written in 1676, only 65 years after the King James is printed and exactly 100 years before the United States was even founded. It is, moreover, written by a dying man over a period of four days. So needless to say, not only do the spellings of most words change through the course of the document, but most of them are actually misspelled by modern standards of spelling. Some of the words are actually missing letters that, even for the time, would be noticed. So, I hope this clarifies for you what I will be "fixing". What I will not be changing are the antiquated forms of pronoun reference (thee, thou, thy, etc). And I will try as best I can to be faithful to the "feel" of the letter, keeping it in a more authentic frame (something similar to the form you see it in Secret Teachings. Does this alleviate some of your concerns?
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:42 am

Hi Very Happy

Copyright infringement, especially nowadays, can easily lead to a lawsuit (generally, several years of hassle) … So, I understand Truekabbalist.

Getting a clearance is indeed the best.
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PostSubject: Re: A third capucine monk letter?!   Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:30 am

trueKabbalist,

Can you see whether the letter was written or signed with blood? Leiden (Leyden) is a town in South Netherlands. Why should a dying Capuchin monk write in another language than high Dutch. The language of the scholars (of the learned) was Latin then.


scratch

Frank
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