Is Alchemy Science?

cocojambo,

You do not have to put on a crazy robe, but it would be good to understand that there are forces here that we do not understand, that science does not understand. Yes alot of the language that the old alchemists used sound rediculous, and it is in our modern understanding. But hidden in there somewhere is a science.

It is like native sciences. They may not have had the understanding of what was goin on, they just knew that bark of that tree does good things for you. Hidden in these crazy words are procedures that do in fact create a thing of great power, and danger. We are just looking for these procedures.

bluefloor wrote:

cocojambo,

You do not have to put on a crazy robe, but it would be good to understand that there are forces here that we do not understand, that science does not understand. Yes alot of the language that the old alchemists used sound rediculous, and it is in our modern understanding. But hidden in there somewhere is a science.

It is like native sciences. They may not have had the understanding of what was goin on, they just knew that bark of that tree does good things for you. Hidden in these crazy words are procedures that do in fact create a thing of great power, and danger. We are just looking for these procedures.

All I was saying is that still thinking in that mindset will lead nowhere. A collection of facts is not understanding.

The stone CAN be made through purely chemical means, so to completely ignore chemistry and spout something like "think alchemically" is silly because chemistry is a key part of alchemy. For example, what is calcination if not a chemical change by heat? Carbonization? Hello?

Alchemy is a super set of chemistry. There's actually lots of leads on what the stone is in the context of modern science. Etheric forces can play a part in the stone's creation, but they don't have to.

Sure some of the term can overlap because you are just performing a simple procedure that can go by many names. But the terms in alchemy are there for a reason. It is a whole new science unto inself.

To say it is a superset of chemistry is really wrong. It is the father of chemistry only because so much of the actual chemical knowledge was gained by scientists that were actually looking for something else. It is the alchemy that got them working on these things, that does not mean they throw out new knowledge that they obtained. That also does not mean they are the same.

It may in fact be that nature does in fact work in the language that alchemy describes. Salt, sulfur, mercury etc. It is a coincidence that we have such super advanced science and have still not found alchemy? If you ask me, I say I don't think so. I would say it is intentionally hidden by a master craftsman/woman.

Alchemy is going in to a new area of spirit. We all have one. I know about spirit in my own life because I have experienced it in many ways. I know of its power. I know this for myself but can't really prove it to you. All I can do is give examples.

It gets philisophical. For instance: do you think life has a purpose? If yes, then oops, did things made from nothing but hard scientific moving bodies produce something with a purpose?

Do you like to have fun? Again how does something made of nothing but hard scientific moving bodies have fun?

There is life out there. More than just science. Understanding, that might be a bit out of our reach right now, but I do know that if you want to understand this stuff, you have to understand that there is something above what our science is telling us is supposed to be there.

But yes, if we're doing research into how something works and seeking understanding, then obviously it's a science. How can one understand something without science?

I agree that alchemy developed before chemistry on the historical timeline, but in the context of where it fits as a science, chemistry is a part of alchemy. Alchemy involves chemistry and more, so for someone to say "think alchemically not chemically", that is truly silly because you cannot have alchemy without chemistry. Calcination is chemistry. With heat we're carbonizing compounds. Putrefaction is chemistry, with temperature, air, etc. we are allowing microbes to break down compounds and create new ones. Tons of "alchemy" procedures are just basic chemistry procedures, so the flippant dismissal of the possibility of identifying a compound is... mind boggling.

Personally one needs to look no further than the confines of any alchemy forum to understand why it is hidden, and there's no relation to master craftsmen. I've no doubt many have gotten the stone from Nick's processes, but how many have come here to share there success? How many have come here to help others? 0 and maybe less than 10 respectively. Threads easily get 50+ views so people are obviously seeing them. Honestly, my patience is tested to the extreme by alchemists... many seem to see it as more of a religion than a science.

Once I complete my stone, I'll be posting a picture. Expect it.

Cocojambo, you wrote... "my patience is tested to the extreme by alchemists".
Seems to me (an eyetalian & spaghetti eater of course with an exagerated sense of honuor) a little pretentious.
If you are not an alchemist, you are not interested in all the stuff that Alchemy is, well...
Ehm...

And I think that the day you succeed in making the stone (sincerely good luck!) is not necessary that all the world knows it.

Sometimes seems to me that some of you yankees would like to play soccer but using the rules of american football ... Know what I mean?

"Just do the F. thing dude" does not function sometimes and if it does... Well...
My suggestion is to read Ali Puli, where Alchemy ethics etc. is really well explained. In Alchemy, delusion and illusions can play strange tricks to the most squared and tough dudes, and that is probably the reason why sometimes we see in the web and even in these pages people who write and think like a pimp, with some kind of grandeur that seems to me simply pathological.
Anyway, good luck.

I think you've got me wrong, Zosimo. I think a better way to explain it is what someone else wrote at Alchemy Forums. That to become a master alchemist it seems one must also must be a master riddle solver. This is what frustrates me greatly. That alchemists cannot speak directly and frankly, often times leading people on wild goose chases with their writings. This trait is worst in the European alchemists, probably because of the influence of the church. Not so much the Arabic or Indian texts. These are often wonderfully frank and you can learn a lot. Glauber is good too.

I will post a stone only so others may have a photo to reference when they make their own. Such a thing does not exist on this site yet. It is something I would like to have right now as I am learning instead of walking in the dark.

It's really not about grandstanding or showing off if that's what you're getting at. If I wanted to do that, I think I would pick a better location than a small alchemy forum. I would love to have photos of the various elemental stones at different degrees of multiplication, wouldn't you? Showing the various changes in appearance and physical characteristics.

I will take a look at that book, appreciate the recommendation.

Modern science doesnt recognize the spirit or believe in the divine light and creation. Long before chemistry, alchemy existed. Before astronomy (concerned w size, composition and movement of planets) there was astrology (all of the above + influence of these planetary-stellar energies) and before magic (used for wickedness today) there was kaballah (wisdom - law). So one can see that the supreme ancient sciences have been crippled and diluted by the church in last two millenia and concluded with destruction of Bohemian alchemy stronghold in the 1700´s.

Here is a quote from Paracelsus:

Now if you dont understand the use of the Quabalist and the old astronomers (astrologers), you are not born by God for the Spagyric Art, or chosen by Nature for the work of Vulcan, or created your mouth concerning the alchemical arts.

It requires lots of faith, sacrifice, work and study of the Old Wisdoms!
Ore et Labore

I'm sorry, my words "is alchemy science" were the wrong words. Of course it can be aproached as a science. But that does not make the terms used in alchemy useless or garbage. Its true these terms were way overused and things were hidden in this way by the sages. It is annoying to read that.

When we strip some of that excess away though there is still a new language with terms that describe what is going on that will not be found in chemistry. If we search for these things using strictly chemistry we will fail. Of course there will be chemicals in the flask no matter what we use, and undoubtedly some of those reactions are necessary, but when it comes to understanding the true work, we are going to have to accept some new terms for things and reactions that just don't take place chemically.

Thinking alchemically is not silly. If we are dealing with totally new forms of reactions, then we are going to need names for them.

bluefloor wrote:

I'm sorry, my words "is alchemy science" were the wrong words. Of course it can be aproached as a science. But that does not make the terms used in alchemy useless or garbage. Its true these terms were way overused and things were hidden in this way by the sages. It is annoying to read that.

When we strip some of that excess away though there is still a new language with terms that describe what is going on that will not be found in chemistry. If we search for these things using strictly chemistry we will fail. Of course there will be chemicals in the flask no matter what we use, and undoubtedly some of those reactions are necessary, but when it comes to understanding the true work, we are going to have to accept some new terms for things and reactions that just don't take place chemically.

Thinking alchemically is not silly. If we are dealing with totally new forms of reactions, then we are going to need names for them.

I guess that is where we disagree. I do not believe any of the reactions are new at all. They only appear magical and new to us because, well, I don't think any of us has the proper background in these fields to recognize them.

Delmar Bryant:

The science and art of chemistry to-day is devoted to the
destruction and disintegration of forms, and is almost wholly an attempt to separate them into elementary principles which in themselves are but more or less arbitrary postulations of the chemists themselves. The science and art of alchemy, on the other hand, is devoted to the combining of natural principles into an actual creation. It is virtually a reproduction of the process employed in sprouting a seed or hatching an egg and bringing the same to maturity.

For you see what it is the ancient practical alchemy I suggest you follow this text extracted of Raymond Lull book "The Clavicle" that you find easly in the Net. It is a menstrue fetid dissolvent of the Moon Chaux. Try it!

.

In modern, scientific terms, this is what alchemy is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chemistry

Quantum Chemistry

Quote :

It involves heavy interplay of experimental and theoretical methods:

Oh God tell me about it...

That link is about something called quantum chemistry not alchemy. ??
But I think most modern scientists would say that alchemy is nonsense. Just like alot of modern people seem to think that our science is so advanced and explains everything which = there is no higher power (living thinking creator), everything just popped out of nothing and then evolution happened and woohoo that explains it.

I like what neptune said and I am also a firm believer in spirit and divine light which I could explain a little but I think it is fairly self explanatory. Not just because thats what I came to from thinking it through but also from many life experiences.

A "philosopher" knows that there is some mystery or magic to life that make it special. For lack of better words. For example there is the case of time and what I call the problem of the eternal past. Take a timeline, one arrow in the direction of the future, and one arrow in the direction of the past. Now imagine that line in the future going to infinity. Well that is no problem to imagine, future events just keep happening, forever, no problem. But if we do the same with the past, which is absolutely logical, it has to be there right? There was always an event before the last event, thats just the way it happens. But when we take that to infinity there is a huge problem. Infinty never stops, it is still going. So that means new past enents would have to be happening every day. That can't happen.

So just by using a thought experiment based on absolutely unshakeable logic we can see that reality itself as we know it breaks down. What can be more fundamental in reality than the absolute fact that one event has to follow another, and that time moves on, thats just the way it is. But I just proved that as fundamental as that is, it cannot be reality.

Stuff like that opens your mind. But I will speak on actual alchemy in the next few days.

I think its a coincidence i see this post today... i have a topic im going to write that is directly related to the title of this topic....its not really good news though

The way I see it all previous points are valid. The actual work and laboratory procedures of alchemy are one and the same with chemistry. "As above so below" That is a statement that says the laws of physics are always the same no matter where or what size you are in the universe. There for alchemy and chemistry are one and the same by virtue of the laws of physics alone.

That said an alchemist and a chemist are NOT one and the same. A chemist seeks to modify only physical matter forsaking the nonphysical. An alchemist on the other hand seeks to use physical matter to control nonphysical matter in such a way as to alter the physical in ways that are vastly more difficult than with chemistry alone.

In order to practice alchemy as a science you must also be able to interact with the supernatural as reliably as any science. This is why I believe that alchemy is intended as an adept science. Only those who understand magic or psychic abilities should practice alchemy unless directly guided by someone who does.

Anyone who doesn't meet one of the two criteria is literally blind when it comes to being able to perceive the supernatural strength inherent in all alchemical substances. The completed Ph Stone is an obscenely psychic object. It is rather uncomfortable for those sensitive to such things to even focus on much less to stand near.