This is not Chemistry

At the risk of sounding too much of a newbie I will ask any way.

We've all heard it, this is alchemy not chemistry. Do the same steps over and over, and every time the outcome is different, repeat melting in the kiln over and over until you succeed. Results are different each time.. Because this is alchemy not chemistry.

I have to ask what is the variable that is changing here (that results in a different outcome even when the exact steps are repeated)?

Is this variable a physical one like the composition of the gw, or the subtle changes it temperatures, or bacteria, or the amount of astral force in the gw, or subtle difference in how one might have digested or distilled or filtered etc .. that is hard to replicate, but is nonetheless an 'ingredient' or 'process' in the work. Or is it mental, etheric, karmic, faith, emotional?

Notice I included astral force or life force as an ingredient. This is not chemistry because we deal with astral energy i.e. life force. But, is there more to it ...

I am asking so I know how much 'mental' effort I need. Do I need to talk to my crucibles, do I need to set an image in my head of my goal and concentrate on it, do I need to pray and ask god for help, do I need to do good deeds for good karma, do i need to watch my work and send it love, do i need to sit by the melting kiln and send it good vibes. Or can i do the work and not invest this mental/emotional vision or belief into the flasks, crucible and kiln.

What is the changing variable?

The idea or way I was taught and understand is that when a person begins learning and practicing Alchemy, he or she will become "enlightened" and ascend to higher level of being and living......

For example in a book on Alchemy the starting chapters describe and instruct you to make a elixir from the plant kingdom for each day of the week.....and as you learn about each one as you create them, you begin to learn the fundamental core values of Alchemy and what it is all about.

Then as you begin to take each elixir that you made for each day of the week, the elixirs help you to gain the mental and physical values and knowledge needed by practicing Alchemist......

From there you move on to the next kingdom which would be the "animal" kingdom, And then finally the "mineral" Kingdom in which case the Alchemist continues to grow in knowledge, wisdom and power even more.....

The Alchemist is working toward a ultimate goal......and that is of course the stone. By the time the Alchemist has reached this point he is VERY powerful and wise and contain the experience for making the stone from the "mineral" kingdom and becoming all powerful...... immortal.

Alchemist do not die really, they choose to move on to the level of being beyond human......

I know that does not directly answer your question per say.....I do not think there is a simple answer really....Science today sounds like Science Fiction as they make advancement in Quantum Mechanics for example...

Quantum Mechanics has PROVEN with out a doubt that just the act of "observing" alone will affect the outcome greatly.....the Split Experiment is the best example of this.....

Quantum Entanglement proves that there is faster speeds than the speed of light....and also that there is something "else" at work here....

Quantum Entanglement example - Take 2 dice and "entangle" them....now you can separate the 2 dice by ANY distance and whatever you do to one of them you will do to the other one as well instantly no matter how far apart the dice are in distance from each other....it is like the 2 dice became one.....so the question is how did the information get to the 2nd dice from the first dice in a instant?...... meaning NO time passed at all for the data to travel from one dice to the other.....

Science is working to build a Quantum Computer and there already exist several designs but they are primitive at this point as we learn more....

However, our brain is a quantum computer and it has been proven by test......thats why our brain can do so many things at once and have a endless amount of storage for memories.....every single image you have ever seen from birth is stored in your brain.....

SO if we learn to use all our brain think of the possibilities??

And since the Split Experiment proves that the observer alone changes the outcome I think it is safe to say that the Alchemist presence and thoughts affect the outcome or final product......a better question is how much maybe??

BioMatrix wrote:

... the observer alone changes the outcome I think it is safe to say that the Alchemist presence and thoughts affect the outcome or final product......a better question is how much maybe??

I'd add this to your question

What kind of thoughts?
Do you pray for assistance .. or
Do you envision and hold and image of what you want to see manifest

So, this 'changing variable' is the human presence, thoughts, or intentions. Is this the consensus?

Here is another thought.....

You have to "imagine" something before you actually do it.....

The Wright brothers "imagined" a human being flying in the air plane.....they then made this a reality by building the plane....

When a boxer prepares for a fight, he "see's" himself in his mind winning the fight, and not only that but he even envisions how the fight will go and what blow he will use to finish or TKO the opponent.....

Most all success stories and successful people claim that they "saw" themselves in the life they currently live before they achieved it in reality.....they describe looking into the mirror and instead of seeing the person with no money or job, the instead see the rich successful guy dressed in a Italian suit....

I think we really do create our reality.......I have always wondered that maybe when we dream we are in "reality" and this awake state is an illusion......what if we got it backwards?? Meaning this dream state is what really counts as opposed to the way we think now.....

This is kinda what I meant by "you envision and hold and image of what you want to see manifest"

I read somewhere that one should, like you said, imagine envision and see what they want and this act of creating it in your head tells the universe to bring this object to you. But, who knows, I sure don't.

I read on a different forum, a guy who claimed success, he said that negativity seems to repel spiritus mundi. So maybe all you need is to be positive, uplifted, calm and happy while doing the work (vs. stressed, worried, hurried, or in a negative mood)

I'm hoping people here who had positive lab results could chime in with some advice on this 'changing variable' and what it might be. If it is the human presence/mind then what is it about that, is it seeing, feeling, or just being positive. Or perhaps this changing variable is a secret, if that's the case you can PM me

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is usually called insanity, except it doesn't seem to apply to my computer!! There are two thoughts I can contribute here. Firstly, there is a great book called Invisibility by Steve Richards. It has a chapter on alchemy that I think will enlighten you and explains some of the properties of Akasha, the substance that we are dealing with. Steve shows the reader that it is possible through occult experiments to gather a cloud of the aether with you will. the same is basically true if you read the books of Eric Yudelove and Mantak Chia. Chi does respond to the mind. So the alchemist can have an effect on his work. Is that essential to success? You'll have to decide for yourself. Secondly, through reading various works and through personal experience you must remember that the alchemists taught that there were ripe seasons for the great work. I have determined that there is a sort of tidal flux to this aetheric field and this is what affects the seasons more than the position of the sun. Would you be more likely to succeed in alchemy in the spring time, doing the same experiment ? I would have to say yes, it is more likely and your results could be much different given the different times of the year. This is why the ancients paid attention to stars and seasons for the birth of their children. They had a deep seeded belief that the stars, planets, seasons and even the time of day had a profound effect on the first breath of a child and could determine one's destiny. Just some ideas to reflect on.

This is my little kick to you Bros..
You express a lot of good ideas about the matter, let me try to SPAGIRIZE them...

- Truth is reality in all its mistery: it's not a word, an explanation or a goal, but is reality and nobody can grant you IT, because it's You. Even if somebody of us like to belong to some religion that says that's saving him/her, he/she'll face every day this simple fact.
- Eternity is someting more than a word, a somebody's revelation or a usual feeling, and it's the experience of you original root.
- Starting from this experience of Eternity you can have the idea of an order about whatever is you challenge, because from this silence that makes you (quite) disappear, the best insights will come.
- So revelations of any kind, but only sicere one, will pierce the thick coats of pretensions and expectations that usually the common man is affected by.


My suggestion is: use whatever tecnique, rite or system that you like: Qi gong, Yoga, Esicasm, Mantra, Tantra & Yantra, Qaballà, Holy mass & Sacraments, Dhikr, Theurgy, Zazen...
But sincerely remain in the powerful, terrifying reality that is generated here, now and from beginnengless time. The humans call it Eternity but soon, if you want, you'll experience it as your real life.

My investigation of the world, people and myself show me that alchemy is not the grandma of chemistry, but the dream of completeness that is concealed in every science and in every man. So a powerful dream can make you paranoid or freacky if you don't lower completely the bucket into the well.
A serious commitment, I think. Good luck my Bros.

I honestly do not buy into the "majestic" stuff......I personally can not stand when people try to convey very simple communication, using all these "poetic" type words.....does nothing but confuse mostly....

My predictions are that Quantum Mechanics will be able to explain the outcome which seems "magical" by the untrained eye....I do not believe in magic so that leaves me with finding what the TRUTH really is.....

The TRUTH is simply defined as something that does not change EVER. Nothing more nothing less, and no poetic terms needed to explain.

There are subtle energies that we do not understand, period.

To make up for what we do not understand, we add assumption....very dangerous.

My experience in Alchemy has been one to find how things work and why......so far, as I go through each experiment step by step I have found a direct link to a quantum theory which explains the outcome better than any poet could.....

What I have NOT found as of yet is any "magic"......I do not expect that I will find any either......but I will keep an open mind.

-

Not sure if you seen this video yet but it is IMHO a really great video which actually explains some of the "Quantum" relations that I keep mentioning...

Please have a look, the entire video is great and should be watched at least 3 times to get all of it....

Right around the 30 minute mark is when they start to explain the quantum relationships found....as well as the role of the "observer" or Alchemist doing the work.......which is in relation to the question you asked about the role of the Alchemist in the experiment...

This is SUPER exciting to me as it means we could scientifically begin to process these once "mysterious" instructions filled with encrypted symbolism......it also means to me a way to verify the validity of any certain process.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=711GUvU06eY&feature=em-subs_digest-newavtr-vrecs

The TRUTH is simply defined as something that does not change EVER[quote]

At least [or however] what you call poetry is alive and kicking enough to CHANGE.
Eyes that have not wonder are not those of a real alchemist.
And a mind that seek unchanging truths - even scientifical or mystical ones - doesn't match reality but always revolves around finding excuses with the names of theories or dogmas.
For what I know a low mind produces only low things: let's say... some kind of chemistry?
Finding gold, in this way, if never happens, could be the last and final delusion.
The power of CHANGING should be understood, before that anybody can have the experience of it.
Who misunderstands mith and poetry doesn't see the truth even in a sparrow. Let alone in a flask or in a crucible.
At that moment can only be saved: the DNA's $cientists or a Messiah will do their best for that poor thing. One day or the other.
So being a crafty guy it's OK: just having more wonder could be even more enjoyable.

Not really sure what any of that is suppose to mean Zosimo......

Perhaps you could rephrase it using coherent sentences with proper vocabulary and structure?

Better yet, watch the video that I posted a link for, maybe it will help explain what I have been trying to convey here......

You see I play both sides of the fence to get the most meaning.....you could say. I have formal training in Alchemy with MANY MANY years of experience and have had the pleasure to work with and correspond with some of the greatest practicing Alchemist of our generation.....

I have also had formal training in Science as well as engineering.......top'd again with years and years of study and research and experience.

Am I trying to impress you with my resume and experience?? Not in the least......just trying to convey that I have been around the block or two in my time.....

When you present data to a person that contradicts his or her beliefs, the same area of your brain activates that would if you were under attack by a stranger coming at you with a baseball bat!!

Your brain can not tell the difference between the two unless you teach it to.....this also explains the hostility that people have as well and why disagreement can lead to a fight.......throw some alcohol in the mix and all bets are off.......LOL!!

This is why people have such a hard time accepting and grasping new data or data that would point to an answer different than they believe or they never saw or thought of......VERY common.

BioMatrix wrote:

When you present data to a person that contradicts his or her beliefs, the same area of your brain activates that would if you were under attack by a stranger coming at you with a baseball bat!!

Your brain can not tell the difference between the two unless you teach it to.....this also explains the hostility that people have as well and why disagreement can lead to a fight.......throw some alcohol in the mix and all bets are off.......LOL!!

This is why people have such a hard time accepting and grasping new data or data that would point to an answer different than they believe or they never saw or thought of......VERY common.

Interesting.

By the way Zosimo is Italian so English isnt his strongest language which is understandable

Thanks for the youtube link.

Dear Bro Biomatrix,
You're probably an enthusiast, or a person with a strong, or a reactive character, or you're simply generously filling the pages of this forum with various proclamations, and you've done a lot as a scientist and alchemist. All of this may be true or not, I mean, here statements are made by pictures and sharing things is a delicate matter: I'm not the champion of it as, may be, nobody is. In any case, I wish you the best.
And the best that will come from you will be a good thing for all of us.

Hi every one

Quantum Mechanics interesting point of view BUT do not know if I totally agree on the explanation, but I know I'm completely against the tide of what I think in the modern vision that is raging throughout the environment alkene etc IMHO it is now trying to explain many of the phenomena and also many failures alchemy with not understanding and not just the application of modern quantum physics or similar.
but IMHO this generalization actually raging in many cases trying to reduce everything to an incorrect understanding of the interpretation of quantum physics (ie relation operator subject oratory and similar jokes in the past too orat and alchemists gave space to laborat but there was also the other bikes less mystical and mystical and much more on a SCIENCE-secret-alchemical)
IMHO I think this is because in reality they do not know and WE do not know the real processes of alchemy and no longer able to reproduce these results which were rather widely the ancient alchemists and RC In fact, THE REAL REALITY living ALCHIMIST RC SEEMS REALLY VERY WELL DIFFERENT !!!
IN FACT that is clear in fact the true reading manuscripts RC ES: THESAURO THESAURORUM ,the SEGRET ExTASI O of FEDERICO GUALDI , and in particular is very interesting about what the GOLDEN CHAIN ​​OF HOMERO EDITION OF 1781 and comments and notes that members of the RC in 1781 have added to it RAMS DVD version ( Nb GOLDEN CHAIN ​​Homeri the version of the 17821 published in full in dvd RAMS them fully retrievable with all the various interesting notes of the RC to the various chapters (in particular, are of great interest in the notes on operating the RC dissolve universal and obtaining spiritus wines ph. )

In fact, by carefully reading these texts and manuscripts true original and traditional RC in my opinion it is clear that everything is really very different and that everything is really so scientifically and pragmatically with the instructions of a SCIENCE-alchemical secret-and that can be seen by reading the texts that this is always well repeatable and precisamete always feasible but of course if you know of course the real process and the true methodology SCIENCE-secret-alchemical)


and always everything always shows very clearly the true reading texts with the real instructions of the RC de1700 about'm trying to post here all the thesaurus THESAURORUM in French and in Italian (but I have difficulty in doing so, help) that was translated and published by my friends and loved ones who work with me and it is in this context would therefore be very interesting to me reads these documents collectively with true original operating instructions traditional operating the RC
therefore I am (against run) a little skeptical towards these new interpretations of modern physics qantistica and other new interpretations
however, even though I do not believe these interpretations for understanding the alchemical results it is interesting what you say and will think carefully about what you have taught that in other fields may open other prospects possibly very large
if (counter-current) and I think the chemistry functions independently and the results expected ph stones and elixirs are always repeatable (once you know what to do) and they need only well-known methodologies SCIENCE-secret-alchemical ) and clearly understand them and apply them in the right way SURE is a science that is in tune with nature and lunar influences stellar solar magnetic influences of radon earthquakes of light and dark green ray of dawn tears etc etc with the seasons and their influence etc etc and what the modern science does not take it into account but science is and once they've understood the principles and repeatable always pragmatic and IMHO this is ALCHEMY

and in my opinion the true original and traditional instruction RC of 1700 rose gold cross etc etc and their nine internal degrees of pink gold cross etc etc (as I said in the other post *) all operational keys that we lack and which serve to operate exactly the alchemical methods are well indicated

* RC degrees (in clear striking example of this see the degree of Theoricus that TP has shown us in his post Sab Set 01, 2012 12:33 pm

http://www.illuminated-alchemists.com/t11p105-spirit-of-tartar#5321
which is published in full in dvd rams and in google in german at the link http://books.google.it/books/about/Die_theoretischen_Br%C3%BCder_oder_zweite_St.html?id=vOBAAAAAcAAJ&redir_esc=y .)

*RC internal degrees
for the Golden R.C. internal degrees for to have a very very good general overview with also instructions alchemical operative very interestig and the dep indication of oprativite alchemical internal of the degrees of the golden rosa cross is the very very interesting the (German) book of Bermhard Beyer Das Lehrsystem des Ordens der Gold- und Rosenkreuzer. Pansophia - Urquellen inneren Lebens.
In amazon : http://www.amazon.de/Lehrsystem-Ordens-Gold--Rosenkreuzer-Pansophia/dp/3902705027/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1351794581&sr=8-2 (now i found and i attach version itatian in thread Thesauro Thesaurorum )


my best regards alexbr
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::..ITALIAN ORIGINAL:::::::::::::::::
Salve a tutti

FISICA QUANTISTICA MECCANICA QUANTISTICA interessante punto di vista MA non so se sono totalmente d'accordo sulla spiegazione ma so di essere su ciò assolutamente contro corrente io penso che nella visione moderna che sta imperversando in tutto l’ambiente alchenico etc INHO infatti si cercano ormai di spiegare molte delle fenomenologie e anche molti insuccessi alchemici con non comprensione e non giusta applicazione la fisica quantistica o modernità similari.
ma IMHO in realtà questa generalizzazione imperversante che in molti casi che cerca di ridurre tutto a una non corretta comprensione della interpretazione della fisica quantistica (ossia relazione operatore materia oratorio e facezie similari anche nel passato alchimisti davano spazio ad orat e laborat ma c’era anche dell’altro moto meno mistica e misticheggiante e molto più su una SCIENZA- segreta -alchemica ) è una scienza che va in sintonia con la natura con gli influssi lunari stellari solari influssi del radon tellurici magnetici di luce e ombra del raggio verde delle lacrime dell’aurora etc etc con le stagioni e il loro influsso etc etc e di ciò la scienza moderna non ne tiene conto ma scienza è e una volta che se ne sono capiti i principi e ripetibile pragmaticamente sempre e la IMHO è questa l'alchimia

e invece interpretazioni di misticismo meccanica quantistica relazioni mistiche col cuore materia operatore etc IMHO ciò avvengono e vengono snocciolate secondo me perchè in realtà non sanno E NON SAPPIAMO i veri procedimenti alchemici e non si riescono più a riprodurre questi risultati cosa che invece facevano ampiamente gli antichi alchimisti e i RC
infatti LA REALTA CHE VIVEVANO I VERI ALCVHIMISTI E RC SEMBRA VERAMENTE MOLTO BEN DIVERSA
E INFATTI Ciò SI EVINCE CHIARAMENTE leggendo infatti i veri manoscritti RC THESAURO THESAURORUM , SEGRETE EXTASI DI FEDERICO GUALDI ETC and in particolare a riguardo a ciò è interessante la CATENA AUREA DI HOMERO EDIZIONE DEL 1781 e i commenti e note che i membri della RC del 1781 hanno aggiunto ad essa (nb CATENA D'ORO HOMERI della versione del 17821 pubblicata integralmente nel dvd RAMS e li integralmente ritrovabile con tutte le varie interessantissime note dei RC ai vari capitoli (in particolare sono di estremo interesse in questo le note operative dei RC riguardanti dissolvete universale e l’ottenimento dello spiritus vini ph )

infatti leggendo con attenzione quei testi e manoscritti veri originali e tradizionali della RC a mio parere si evince che tutto è veramente molto diverso e che tutto sia veramente talmente e scientificamente pragmaticamente con delle istruzioni di una SCIENZA-secreta-alchemica e che si evince leggendo i testi che questa è sempre ben ripetibile e sempre precisamete realizzabile se pero ovviamente si conosce ovviamente il vero procedimento e la vera metodologia di SCIENZA-secreta-alchemica )
e sempre tutto cio sempre si evince molto chiaramente leggendo i veri testi con le vere istruzioni de1700 dei RC a riguardo sto cercando di postare qui tutto il THESAURO THESAURORUM in versione francese e in versione italiana ( ma ho difficolta nel farlo un aiuto ) che è stato tradotto e pubblicato da mie amici cari e che collaborano con me ed è in questa ottica sarebbe dunque secondo me molto interessante legge collettivamente questi documenti con istruzioni vere operative originali tradizionali operative dei RC
dunque io sono ( contro correte ) un poco molto scettico verso queste nuove interpretazioni moderne di fisica qantistica e altre new interpretazioni
comunque anche se non credo a queste interpretazioni per la comprensione dei risultati alchemici è interessante ciò che dici e rifletterò con attenzione su ciò che hai esposto che anche in altri campi forse aprono altre prospettive molto forse anche ampie
anche se (contro corrente) e penso che l'alchimia funzioni indipendentemente e che i risultati da ottenere pietre ph ed elixir siano sempre ripetibili ( una volta che si sa cosa fare) e che basti solo ben conoscere le metodologie di SCIENZA-secreta-alchemica) capirle e chiaramente e applicarle nella maniera giusta
e secondo me nelle vere originali e tradizionali istruzioni RC del 1700 rosa croce d'oro etc etc e nei loro 9 gradi interni della rosa croce d'oro etc etc ( come ho già detto in altri post *) tutte le chiavi operative che ci mancano e che servono a far funzionare esattamente i metodi alchemici ci sono ben indicate

*gradi RC ( a chiaro esempio eclatante di ciò si veda il grado di theoricus che tp ci ha indicato nel suo post che http://www.illuminated-alchemists.com/t11p105-spirit-of-tartar#5321 è pubblicato integralmente nel dvd rams e che in google in tedesco e condultabile al link http://books.google.it/books/about/Die_theoretischen_Br%C3%BCder_oder_zweite_St.html?id=vOBAAAAAcAAJ&redir_esc=y )

cordialiali saluti alexbr

There is no doubt that the mind can affect things but I do not think it is essential for this work. Nick said one must repeat the same experiments just because the special ingredient is hard to nail down and difficult to know if you have it there in the first place.

The changing variable spoken about I think is time of year or astrological influence. Also the place on earth where the experiment is conducted could have different energies that will affect the subtle things.

Well, I agree with you both, about sharing infoes here in the forum or between us.
At the same time I think that this should not be said out of here, because people need something more than truth, that is don't receiving more weight that summs up on their shoulders with their frustractions, paranoia, and scare (superstition).
We can't still present Alchemy as a science or as The Real Science, or something that could be considered a slice or an ancestor of chemistry.

I think that Fulcanelli said the most politically correct thing about Alchemy:
"The secret of alchemy is this: is there a way to manipulate matter and energy that can produce what modern scientists would call 'A force field'. This field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position in relation to the universe. From this position he has access to all the organizations that are normally hidden by time and space, energy, and matter. This is what we call the Great Work. "

So, somebody at least can say "Aah, is an interactive thing, a very spiritual one...".

I think that we can't be understood if we use (out of here) other words.
Making a comparison to make you understand what I'm saying, it's like when you give to common people all the informations, and casuistry, and name and posology of substances that can REALLY cure them... And they will not use them: they go to the physicians that, usually, being squeezed between professional "ethic", I mean (pharmaceutical industry) protocols, and insurance company, will give them the worse possible solution...
But they will acept it, and like it so much... Even if it's wrong.

Could someone suggest a manuscript from RAMS or another "trusted" and ancient script that addresses this changing variable?

The right mind set as described by others is simply having the positive intention to succeed and visualizing the end result. There are various ways to achieve this such as meditation or subliminal messaging which you can do by listening to 5-10 lines of affirmations that you can record yourself using your own computer or smart phone and you listen to them in loop \ or at certain times during the sleep at night so that those affirmations can finally be implanted in your Subconscious Mind (SM) while you sleep. There is also another factor which tends to get overlooked in favour of other factors and that is the importance of having the auspicious planetary aspects which i believe has far more influence on the alchemical operations , for example ; Traditionally, the alchemist starts important works at the time of the New Moon . Furthermore A sign or a planet is unfavorable through Saturn or Mars aspects, especially
opposition or square, which are inimical aspects, but the
conjunction, the trine, and the sextile are favorable aspects
Among these, the conjunction is the most effective, and if the
planet is discovered when scrutinizing the trine, it is considered as if it were already in conjunction . All planets, however, fear
the conjunction of the Sun and rejoice at its trine or sextile
aspects . I believe there is quite a lot to be learned from astrology and its influnce on alchemist and alchemical operations.

some more advice from
Cornelius Agrippa (1486-1535) :

Every natural force acts in reality still more wonderfully if,
aside from the right physical proportions, it is stimulated and
accompanied by attention to celestial things, because lower
things must be subordinated to higher things, as woman to
man, in order to become fertile .
With every magical operation we must therefore observe
the proportions, movements, and aspects of the stars and the
planets in their respective signs and degrees, and in what
dispositions all these things are in regard to the latitude and
longitude of the place, for all that modifies the angles that fall
upon the appearance of things with the rays of the celestial
bodies. Angles according to which the celestial forces change .
Thus, when working with things that stand in relation to a
planet, the latter must be exalted, placed and considered in a
lucky position and power, to make it lord of the day, the hour,
and the aspects of heaven . And not only should the significator
of the work be considered, but also how the Moon is turned
toward the significator, as nothing can succeed without a
favorably positioned moon . If the work requires the ruling of
several planets, the stronger ones are chosen, and care has to
be taken that they be in favorable aspects ; if there are none,
the aspects in corner houses are to be chosen . The moment has
also to be considered when the Moon has two [aspects], or is in
conjunction with one and irradiated by another, or moves
from the conjunction or aspect with one [star] into the con-junction or aspect with another .

Of course, dear Bro, we can't find the precise kind of statement we're looking for; but you can find very clearly its translation in the words and arguments of that time (salvation, ethic, prayer, destiny, try and harassment). E.G. from Coelum Philosophorum or Book of Harassment, Paracelsus says: "YOU that you are capable of working alchemically, and like many other wait for the promise of great riches by gold and silver - as Alchemy this promises & teaches - in the same way, just you that pass through these hardships and harassment, will continue until you have reached the prizes and the fulfillment of his promises, well, the experience teaches every day to you that in the case of thousands of people... that desire is not fulfilled. Due to a mistake of nature or art? No, I say, rather it is the destiny or at the same time the unskillfulness of the operator".
Know what I mean?
Translation goes through centuries.